This is a response to my previous post. The letters are replies to each other, and the numbers are different points.
I.
A.“'and since government is promoting the religion of Atheism'
B. If this were so, then why are nearly all of our politicians Christian? The government is separating church and state. Freedom of religion means you can go to any church you want. Freedom of religion means that the church doesn’t come to people who don’t want it.”
C. Nearly all politicians claim to be Christian. According to their actions and words, I would think that very few are. Take George W. for example, when he said that Christians, Jews, and Muslims all worship the same God, or when he said that mankind is naturally good, or the way in which he thinks that Democracy will fix all the worlds problems. As for Obama, I could go on a lot longer. See my previous facebook notes for more comments on the subject.
D. It seems you mistake “Christian” and “tyrant.” Just because myriad people don’t hold to your views doesn’t mean that something’s wrong with them. And as for your implication that God can fix all of humanity, they tried that. They called it the Holy Roman Empire. And wouldn’t you know it, it was neither holy, nor Roman. Your politics seem to lean towards tyrannical theocracy. They tried that method back in the middle-ages, and I think we know where that ended.
II.
A. "'Not only are they unable to find evidence, but their theory can't explain such simple things as the geological column not being continuous or even in order; they can't explain why fossils appeared suddenly above strata that is completely void of fossils, or why some fossils are buried through several strata.'
B. I would seem that you have not done enough of your own homework. The geologic column is influenced by two things: erosion, and deposition. Erosion wears entire layers down. Deposition builds them up. If the layer eroded was marine, the rock eroded will be very different than the rock deposited. However, when strata is eroded, it has to go somewhere. The fossils within it were eroded away, but the sediment moves on. And if the last part is implying that a single individual is buried through several layers, it would be incorrect. Fossils are deposited parallel to the layer they are within. If we’re talking about one species found in several layers, then its simple: change occurs when it must. I am rather curious about what you mean by “evidence” because virtually all forms of it are there. And as time and technology progress, they only shed more light on what is there.”
C. It would seem that you have not done your own homework and are getting most of your information from false texts. Fossils are generally buried parallel to the strata, but often times they lie through two or more layers. An animal must be covered quickly to become fossilized, but often times evolutionists say that there are millions of years between different layers of sediment. How can that be? If you look at the supposed evolution of the horse, you will find that the supposed natural evolutionary progression can be found nowhere, and in some places it is upside down. Furthermore, the same “steps” in the evolutionary progression of the horse can be found in many different places of the world, but there are large steps between these supposedly intermediate species, and there are no missing links between them. Hopeful monsters?
D. Really? Because I would think that the paleontologist knows more of paleontology than the engineer. Do I tell you how to design stuff? What did you check, one website that told you what you wanted to hear? Fossils are ALWAYS buried parallel to the strata. Because when they die, they tend to fall over. That’s called gravity, which is also a theory, though you may consider questioning that one too. Fact is that most rock layers are around hundreds of feet thick, and if you can find a creature that’s that long, you’d be rich. In fact, show me an example. Even one.
However, it would seem that I’m speaking to a wall. Erosion and deposition causes rock layers to be worn away and deposited on top of later. I said it nice and you didn’t seem to understand.
As for the evolution of the horse, I still wonder where you get your information from. That’s one of the most consistent examples of evolution out there. And they are NEVER upside down. Again, if you choose to make such claims, please provide evidence. Considering that I have actually spent time at the sites and studied them with my own eyes, I think your texts speak volumes of bullshit. And you mentioned the steps in your note. The process is called punctuated equilibrium. And these species ARE missing links. How much more transitional can they get without jumping out of the rock and screaming it at you? The size, the teeth crowns, the level of fossilization, the toes, the forelimb structure, the torso structure. Read a damn book, man.
III.
A. “'What it was or where it came to be would still be up to interpretation.'
B. Comparative anatomy is a wonderful thing. And where it was found within the rock layers tends to be where it was. Otherwise there would be a disturbance in the area, which would be immediately recognized. And genetic evidences tend to be pretty good. If multiple species have similar DNA, then it would seem reasonable to believe that they are related. Otherwise, Gregor Mendel (who you later mentioned) faked a science.”
C. Mendel did not fake a science and what he discovered is very helpful today. For instance, if we were to find a species with intermediate DNA, according to Mendel it would mean that it was half human and half ape. Mendel's findings suggest that variety within kinds results from preexisting genetic variety. It would not mean that it was a missing link. However, I have no doubt that evolutionists would trumpet it as such since that is what they have done with all of the supposed “missing link” fossils that they have found. This just goes to show what I was talking about with the wide and varied theories that are used to interpret data.
D. If one of the greatest uses of genetics is false, how is it “very useful?” You seem to be purposefully patronizing over things that you support, even if you believe that they’re incorrect. And why? Because the discoverer is a Christian.
IV.
A. “'[Science] cannot prove anything, but is only a tool.'
B. However, if this is true, then what is the point of Intelligent Design? I thought they were out to prove a point.”
C. You should be careful when using the term, “Intelligent Design”, since many people that call themselves such are theistic evolutionists. It is true that many Creationists attempt to prove creation through science. However, many see the fallacy in this, since the results of their research are often ignored by those who don't want such results to be. They know that it is nearly impossible to change a persons mind with the facts, if they do not want it to be changed. “Faith comes by hearing, and hearing by the word of God.” It doesn't come by seeing and seeing by the Book of Nature.
D. Isn’t this the entire point of this argument? You refuse to read a non-theological book of basic geology because you have your beliefs so firmly ingrained that you go on the attack over an alternative point of view? You were brought up with a certain belief system, went to home school (never being exposed to the idea that what you may believe may not be correct, because by golly, you believe it…thus it is correct), then you went to Dordt, which is notorious for pandering to people without upsetting them, for fear that they may get angry letters. Believe it or not, Dr. Mahaffy, Dr. De Haan, and Dr. Allen from the science department believe in evolution. They have doctorates from schools that require actual work. Dr. Allen worked for NASA. They teach the students and are kind enough not to press their beliefs down their throat. So I find it odd that you try to do that here. What is your entire point in this? To be belligerent? To spout logical fallacies at someone, for doing enough homework and having an adaptable enough mind to consider that they may be wrong? Honestly, online, we call people like you fundie trolls. Fundamentalist (meaning you hold to the most conservative views possible) troll (meaning you can’t just let people be without terrorizing them). And I posted you note on another Facebook group. Last I saw, they were enjoying dissecting it and pointing out pages of flaws included. You article holds logic like a sieve holds water.
V.
A. “'The fact is, that even apart from bias in data taking, data must be interpreted and interpretation leads to opinion and error.'
B. However, when the data all suggests one thing, we are more inclined to go with the suggestion. In science, you first figure out what you want solved. Then you make a hypothesis. Then you experiment. After the experimentation stage, you either make another hypothesis, or move on to theory. When the experiment suggests our hypothesis is incorrect, we revise it and try again. Evolution has last for 150 years in its present form, with almost no revision to the theory.”
C. If science is truly objective, the data will suggest nothing. The hypothesis predicts what the data will be but does not concern itself with why it will be. All the data can do is to confirm the hypothesis. It is the theory that does all the suggesting. The Theory of evolution has changed more in the past 150 years than it did from from the Anaxamander to Darwin. Since that time, Darwin and Mendel had to be synthesized, the age of the earth had to be lengthened (and is still being lengthened), the way and place in which man and birds had evolved had to be altered, and Punctuated Equilibrium had to be theorized. The reason for the mass dinosaur extinctions still has not been pinned down, nor the cause for the Great Ice Age but both.
D. And the data were used for hundreds of years to attempt to confirm the hypothesis you champion, and all attempts have been met like a square peg through a round hole. Face it, what you’re saying is the equivalent of saying that the Earth is flat.
VI.
A. “'So it is with the evolutionist who must constantly be changing his theory in order to make up for the increasing evidence against it,'
B. I’m still pondering where this evidence must be. If it were there, I would think people would parade it through the streets. And the lack of revisions towards evolutionary theory also makes me question the legitimacy of this statement. It has changed, yes, but these changes are never large. They’re additions of experimental data to support it. The way in which it changing are small, but numerous and indicate that it is a living, dynamic theory. The study of the origins of life through RNA have been at a standstill for years. Thus, that area is dead. On the whole, however, the theory appears to be holding.”
C. If you want to see the evidence, here it is though I doubt you will accept it.
http://www.answersingenesis.org
http://www.icr.org
http://www.creationresearch.org
http://www.discovercreation.org
If you want real lasting evidence, check out Genesis, the fourth commandment and many of the other places in Scripture where it speaks of such things.
D. Are you kidding me? The IRC website? Those guys are a joke. Real geologists, who use real theories to put real gas in peoples’ cars and find real coal and make sure that real buildings don’t sick into the Earth read these articles for laughs. And you know what? The oil, coal, and ore we find are done so using secular geology. There are certain time periods where coal is and isn’t found. And wouldn’t you know it, the coal produces spores from extinct plant species and we can determine changes through the environments through time because of changes in spore content. Oh my god, real geology has a practical application! What’s this? Its based on science that makes use of evolutionary theory? Check your gas tanks, that stuff is real.
VII.
A. “'If an evolutionist were to believe in Creationism, it would completely destroy the way in which he views the world, and would in turn mean that there is a supreme, omnipotent, omnipresent, and omniscient being who controls everything.'
B. Is that why the Catholic church advocates evolutionary theory? Is that why the main opponent for Intelligent Design is Ken Miller, who is also a Catholic. Believe it or not, it is possible to believe in God and evolution.”
C. To answer your question about the Papists in one word, yes. Too many people who call themselves Christians actually believe in a god that is made in their own image. This grants a lot of freedom to believe whatever you want and yet leaves the stamp of religion on what you say. The Roman Catholics also believe in purgatory, indulgences, transubstantiation, and salvation by works. If what you say about the RCC is true, it is no wonder when one considers the synthesis that has been made with the Hellenistic philosophers. I do indeed know some people who I would guess would be Christians that believe in theistic evolution, but it is always do to an ignorance of the facts on their part since they haven't thought about it.
D. Have you even studied the alternative to what you’re saying outside of your comfortable safety net? In order to find which of two theories holds the most merit, I believe that both must be given equal right to speak. Suppressing one and then claiming that its inferior makes you ignorant by choice.
VIII.
A. “'Though most evolutionists are atheists, there is a sad, small number that call themselves Christians.'
B. You know what they say about assumptions. Though that last part seems to be like an ideological suicide. Like saying “only people under this tall are allowed in heaven.” I think that part may have stepped on millions of toes.”
C. What do they say about assumptions?
D. They that when you assume, you make an ass out of you and me. However, your assumptions make an ass out of you and Umptions. In fact, most Christians believe in evolution. You’re in the minority, but you’ve never left your safety net long enough to realize that you were so outnumbered. Even Muslims acknowledge evolution, in their own way. How bad is it when you’re more conservative than Muslims, who force their women to cover their face or be shot?
IX.
A. Comparative anatomy & Vertebrate paleontology
-Georges Cuvier
B.(who had to argue for years against the religious laymen that there were species that were in fact extinct)
C. So what?
D. So, he spent years arguing against narrow-minded, sheltered people like you, only for you to use him to back your argument? I imagine the G-force of his body spinning in his grave has torn what was left of him to dust.
X.
A. Genetics
-Gregor Mendel
B.(who you earlier discredited the science of)
C. You misunderstood me. See above.
D.No, I caught you using evidence to further your claim that you argued against earlier. They call that a hypocritical belief where I’m from.
XI.
A. Glacial geology & Ictheology
-Louis Agassiz
B. (who actually argued for evolution, because glacial geology usurped flood model geology in the scientific community…which has also since gotten better)
C. So glacial models usurped flood models. It still fits the Creationists model.
D. He spent the rest of his life arguing his theory against people like you. I’d imagine that you using them as references sent them to an ironic and personal hell.
XII.
A. Paleontology
-John Woodward
B. (who actually only wrote the first book on the topic, and was ridiculed by his predecessors for being so incredibly wrong)
C. Sounds like Darwin.
D. No, see, the difference is that Woodward wrote the first book, which sucked royally and which people made fun of him for for decades. Darwin actually holds respect from people who actually study what he said, rather than the implications made by what was said.
XIII.
There is no A.
B. “And now it would seem to be my turn to attack your credibility. However, I think I’ll refrain. I think you’ve done enough damage to your own credibility. I think its great that you have such strong faith. However, you are not the first person to attempt to “correct” me or chastise me for my perspective or whatever. This isn’t my first rodeo. And because I respect your perspective, I won’t do more than defend my own”.
C. Harsh words. I can see that you don't really understand my point, so I hope that this reply will help. By no means is this my “first rodeo” either, but I find that the more I discuss this, the more I learn and the clearer my perspective gets. I am glad that you are willing to stand for what you believe instead of just moping along like most other people. Read your Bible and if you have any questions about the hermeneutics of Genesis, just ask and I will send you more than you ever wanted to know. The RCUS position on evolution paper is a good start. God bless.
D. I really don’t. Unprovoked attacks generally spur me to fight back. And I’m still being comparatively nice.
I think your perspective has never been blurred. I think you need to go out on a limb and consider the possibility that everything you were raised believing may not be correct. Trace your family far enough back and we were all pagans. If your pagan ancestors hadn’t considered that they weren’t correct, this conversation would not be occurring. I think that believing something because you were taught , rather than because you came to that conclusion on your own after extensive research is dangerous. Akin to telling people not to leave their burning house because the cold will kill them. Believing something because that’s the position of your church, rather than because that’s your conclusion is ridiculous. In the animal kingdom, blindly following the leader is bad. Lemmings do that, right before they run off a cliff. Though I would think lemmings are less insistent that they’re completely correct. Do you toss around the idea that potentially one thing you believe may not be correct? I consider that everything I believe is potentially incorrect, which is why I’m fighting this position. I came from where you are, saw that it was ludicrous, and moved on.
XIV.
A. I rest my case. You have proven what I was saying.
P.S.
I got my associates at public school, and spent much of my time discussing this very subject. What I believe HAS changed greatly from what I did initially. Show me where the horse progression is.